Whirlpool

hi all

I want to design graphics for websites. I am good at coding, ASP, database, html etc. In term of graphics I have a dodgy method of making a gradient colour fill and can use MS paint quite well.

I would like to do commercial grade graphics. This would invlove photo manipulation, adding filters, making black and white, cropping the bits I want etc etc. However I would also like to make my own images, logos and headings...even this site you can see some graphics,,, top left, the whirlpool logo, the gradient color fill at top and bottom, the logo bottom left. I'd also like to create text in lots of fonts and visual effects.

So I want to do 2 things manipulate photos and make graphics...

Will paint shop pro do both? The academic version is about $190, which I do not mind paying. However I have heard to do the 2 things I want to do in photoshop will cost me $800.

I guess there is teh option of a dodgy version. I have never done any of teh P2P stuff and am reluctant to as I think is unethical... $800 is a bit though...

will paint shop pro do both things... yes I know there is a 30 day trial download.. Corel draw is by the same people.. can u get that freeware.. can u get earlier versions of PSPro as freeware? The new version of paint shop pro is version 10 and is meant to be good

help appreciated n peter evans

In spite of what you may hear PaintShop Pro can do absolutely everything that Photoshop can do (one way or another). In some cases it's simpler to use, in others its not. In the end they both do exactly the same job with exactly the same quality of output.

In my view Paintshop Pro is superior simply because of it's pricetag and VASTLY reduced bloat. Is there really a need for Photoshop to be so bloated? No of course not. But if you want to blow the big dollars on yet another Adobe bloated app then go for it...

Please note that this poster is currently a little anti-Adobe due to the recently released monster bloated hog that is Premiere Pro 2.0 :P

What about The Gimp?: www.gimp.org

I liked it but I couldn't work with gifs if I can recall. It was a while ago, but for everything else it was quite good. And it was freeware.

I have access to both products, I have done a photoshop course (Lynda online) and have tried really hard to just use photoshop, but I always end up gravitating back to Paint shop pro because it is so easy to use.

I am still getting used to version 10, but I really liked version 9.

The cost is also a big factor.

A lot of the plugins that work with photoshop will work with paintshop pro as well.

I have no doubt if I was a professional graphics artist, I would probably use photoshop, it has all manner of complicated buttons, but for ordinary, and occasional graphics work Paint shop pro is great.

Of course if you are working on vector graphics and that sort of thing, I would use illustrator.

Also a great companion to Paint shop pro is ACDsee, it allows you to do a lot of the common photo stuff as well as cropping, resizing, batch resizing, batch renaming (i think)etc.
There is also a free application similar to acdsee that is called Picassa or something like that, I used to use it a fair bit, and I was very surprised at how great the software was for something that was free, it was very polished, and I would have expected to pay money for an application as nice as this.

I use paint shop pro 7, because it was free, you just have to wait for 5 seconds each time. It does everything I need.

peter8899 writes...

The academic version is about $190, which I do not mind paying.

Sowhy not pay the 'Academic' price of Photoshop?

thanks to all that replied

I will start with paint shop pro X, with the free trial and then in all probability the academic version. Picassa and gimp seem worth a look at too as additional programs

The 2 main issues are a reasonable start up price and ease of use of software.. something that is simpler is a real bonus

n peter evans

Mozzi writes...

Sowhy not pay the 'Academic' price of Photoshop?

or use Elements? Cheap, simple to use, good for web work.

philh writes...

or use Elements?

Agree. Elements used in conjunction with Irfanview would be great.
elements is often given away with cameras, scanners etc.

But if the OP has legit academic access then Photoshop is $185, or $220, forget which.

Hello to everyone. I somehow found this thread through a search engine and being partial to Paint Shop Pro, I joined up.

I think what needs to be looked at is what you want to get out of it in the long run. If you doing this for yourself, Paint Shop Pro is fantastic. If your doing this as a "career move" then at this time (I'm trying to change that), then Photoshop is going to get you in the door.

I totally agree with ferzal. I'm one of the very rare individuals that works full time, self employed, creating some of those high quality "commercial grade graphics" using only Paint Shop Pro. I do not own Photoshop.

The only trick to creating those professional quality graphics is simply having the creativity AND familiarity with the graphics program of your choice.

Even when doing tutorials written from some other program, as long as your comfortable using the tools associated with your program, all you need to do is study what's being done to the image.

Just my thoughts..

Have a great day.

peter8899 writes...

Picassa and gimp seem worth a look at too as additional programs

what can these softwares do for most?
where can i get these downloaded?

i am using photo impression 4 as my photo editing coz it is so easy to use but very limited function. i love graphic design, but find photoshop bit completed to use.
i will love to try something better than impression 4, but free to use.

do gimp and picassa have the same as or better function than photo impression 4?

pls advice

ari1 writes...

what can these softwares do for most?
where can i get these downloaded?

Google is your friend:

GIMP: gimp-win.sourceforge.net
Picasa: picasa.google.com/index.html

GIMP is great if you can get used to the interface. It can be a very powerful application if you are willing to put the time into learning.

Picasa is VERY easy to use and is great for automatically correcting white balance and contrast or creating black and white conversions. Picasa allows you easily create slideshows of your images as well as the ability to email images directly from within the program using your email client (it will automatically resize the images for email).

Ok, long time photoshop , previous paint shop pro user from 3.12 upto 7/8 (bit hazy there)

Paint shop pro is great, cheap and fast, and has a nice way of doing things.
The filters are a bit weak compared to photoshops stock ones though, and I don't recommend buying third party without being aware of what your doing (don't talk to me about black box, eyecandy and xenofex - they created flames, bad bevels and dodgy lightning fx on the web as a sequal to ZOMG lensflare)

However photoshop still wins. Mainly because so many people use it, and assume YOU do as well.

In the longrun, people expect you to be proficent at Photoshop, because thats what the rest of the industry uses as well. If paint shop pro has a bug at loading there files... (color correction ie, and also with 4.0 i had problems like layers stuffing up slightly)

GIMP btw... is good... but not good to jump into as your first program. despite what they say the interface is just not built for sticking too. Picasa is a bit lite, but a good program for day to day use.

ferzal writes...

Please note that this poster is currently a little anti-Adobe due to the recently released monster bloated hog that is Premiere Pro 2.0 :P

PS - what was bad about premiere pro 2.0? just curious

Photoshop is great but you really need to do some courses or online tutorials to get familiar with it. I've used Photoshop for years and I can still admit I haven't used all the tricks and shortcuts to full potential. There is lots to learn.

what is the name of the similar program to paint shop and photo shop that microsoft is making? That will be interesting to try.

Ah I know it, i've used it and hated it.... Photobase? photoxpress? not too sure

how do you guys compare the programs gimp, picassa with artshop photo impression 4?

i am using photo impression 4 for general use of photo editing... but it is just too simple, can't really do much with it.

i would like to try new one but free like picassa or gimp... what do you guys reckon?

ari1 writes...

how do you guys compare the programs gimp, picassa with artshop photo impression 4?

Exactly, different tools for different needs.

For comparison, think of Picassa as like a lite and easy, like photo impression - good and easy to use but you can't do obscure things.

Gimp on the other hand is a bit of a bear to use (worse than photoshop, esp if its your first application!), but has great quality effects, and variety of things you can do.

pls advice which one should i choose picassa or gimp since i have been using PI 4!

i found photoshop bit too complicated.... will try printshop later if i feel gimp or picassa doesnt suit my need anymore.

Try picassa....

Although personally if your only doing the absolute basics of photo editing - which is resizing it and saving it to a nice small size you can't beat IrfanView, which is under 1 meg, can do batch operations and is easily the faster image editing - which is very lightweight and small too.

Super Roach writes...

PS - what was bad about premiere pro 2.0? just curious

What IS bad. This brand new beast is just that - a beast. The recommended system requirements are so much heavier than anything else on the market. I know it's premiere but like most other Adobe products there are other things out there that do the same job. And none of them have the monster requirements of this thing. For example it won't even install on any AMD 32 bit system. That's a little ridiculous.

Adobe have never cared about bloating up but it's not getting to the point where it's ridiculous. The HDD space requirements just for installing the editing studio is now 24 Gig!

wat version is the latest gimp?

i have the gimp 2.2.9 and gimpshop. are these two different programs?

I have been a design for near a decade now. I have used pretty much all the major Graphics apps. One thing i know for certain - nothing - beats - Photoshop. In fact, as far as graphics apps go, nothing beats Adobe.

Paint Shop pro, although not a bad app, just doesn't allow the creativity Photoshop allows. But for basics yeah it will do the just just as well as Photoshop. So if basics is all you are after go for PSP because it is not a bad price.

Gimp - I am sorry to report - is pretty average at best. But for a free app you cant complain. Just don't expect it to let you flex your creative muscles any time soon.

Also, it is important to rememebr - no matter how good the graphics app, it is not going to magically transform you into a star designer. That is a craft learned over a long time and constantly needs honing.

c9k writes...

Paint Shop pro, although not a bad app, just doesn't allow the creativity Photoshop allows.

And why is that? I keep asking this question but no one anywhere in the world has ever been able to provide an answer. In my view PSP allows more creativity because of it's ease of use and quickness. You don't have to wait and wait and wait - you just go. This is a preference of course and I can understand if you're used to Photoshop's antiquated UI that you'd be more comfortable with it but I really can't see how you can claim that everyone's creativity would be limited by using anything else.

There are some technical reasons why some people wouldn't use PSP and many business reasons but restrictive creativity?? Sorry, that's just crud.

microsoft digital image suite 2006

i currently use photoshop elements 4.0 (up from 3.0) and run photoshop cs 9.0 as we,,. recently a client got me a copy of ms digital image suite and if you want something that kills photoshop cs or elements in some areas this is the one.

i used ms dig image suite 10 last year a few times, went back to elements 3.0 but all i can say is MS DIS 2006 is brilliant, not much changed to look at but it just does some things a whole lot better.

its my preferred editor right now, along with elements 4.0

ferzal, I'm glad you said "in your opinion" you think paintshop pro is better than photoshop, because it rates a low very score "in my opinion" in most of what it can do.

I'm not going to get into specifics, thats not the issue, the point is here that we all will offer our opinions, based on what we like.

if you can get hold of MS DIS 2006, at least try it out, i love it, along with elements 4.0

photo story 3.1 is a must have, the best part of MD DIS 2006 IMO

mediaworks writes...

if you can get hold of MS DIS 2006, at least try it out, i love it, along with elements 4.0

is ms dis 2006 a freeware? if not, how much it will be.... cheaper than photoshop?

mediaworks writes...

im not going to get into specifics, thats not the issue, the point is here that we all will offer our opinions, based on what we like.

Opinions are fine but they're like.. well... smelly things. Reasons for opinions are always nice. It's one thing to talk about preference which is an uncontrollable force of nature but when talking about featuresets and what people claim are hard facts (such as the crap that Photoshop is the ultimate tool that does things nothing else can do) then a little justification is required.

The fact of the matter is there is more than one high standard image editing application these days. Photoshop simply isn't the only solution any more and people are very slow on the uptake in this regard.

I hadn't even considered MS DIS 2006 but I'll be taking a look at some stage (if I can get hold of it) since, if it's up to the task technically, then I know the interface will more than likely be top notch. I'm not a blind brand loyalist. I'll swap at the drop of the hat for a better product. :)

ferzal writes...

but restrictive creativity?? Sorry, that's just crud.

LOL, please don't say his opinion is crud, no need for it m8, you think what he said was crud is your opinion, and i personally and absolutely disagree with you, I'm going to totally agree here and also say that "in my opinion also" that paintshop offers me very little creativity also, elements 4.0 (and 3.0) offered much more, as did photoshop cs 9.0 and and now DIS 2006 as well.

edit: most of us in here express our opinions about certain products, software or the likes. i personally dont think someone else should post a reply asking people to backup what they say with supportive documentation to justify our opinions, these are opinions afterall, mostly based on our own experiences with a particular product etc, and to insult someones opinion by saying its a load of "crud" probably in this case does warrant some kind of reasoning why you think that guys opinion was "crud"

for those who tried ms DIS 10 and thought it was very ordinary, well you got to at least try the newer DIS 2006, and the photo slideshow tool in DIS 2006, "photo story 3.1" is quite simply brilliant, and this review by paul thurrott is correct in every detail, he reviewed DIS 2006 brilliantly, but don't take my word for it, or even his, there are many reviews out there, some say different things about DIS 2006, but for me this guy got it right, as he does with all his independent reviews on many other topics and software.

www.winsupersite.com/reviews/dis2006.asp

ferzal writes...

Opinions are fine but they're like.. well... smelly things

ok but telling someone that what he said was "crud" i dont think was called for, it was his opinion and there was no need for you to say it was crud, just say you beg to differ with his opinion.

The fact of the matter is there is more than one high standard image editing application these days. Photoshop simply isn't the only solution any more and people are very slow on the uptake in this regard.


totally agree.
example, microsoft DIS 10.0 wasnt brilliant, and because of that lots of people have carried that thought over to DIS 2006 thinking microsoft couldnt improve on that product, well im here to say that they have and im actually pleased that i can now say microsoft has got 2 things right thus far with software development.

1. creating DIS 2006 and making to a whole lot better than before

2. buying out giant software corporation and making (the now called) microsoft anti spyware (MSAS beta1) into a much better product than what it was before they bought the giant company out.

2 great products from microsoft that im very happy to flog, afterall im in the video/photo editing and processing business and use all sorts of software and these 2 are standouts IMHO.

yes a trial is available (the starter suite) only

digital image starter download here
www.microsoft.com/produc...rteredition.mspx

links to where you can purchase here (about $120 to $150) worth every penny imho

www.staticice.com.au/cgi...image+suite+2006

www.ausprices.com.au/cgi...suite+2006&cid=0

ferzal writes...

In my view PSP allows more creativity because of it's ease of use and quickness.

this isnt a valid reason to say PSP offers "better" creativity than photoshop or any other photo editor.
i find elements, CS 9.0 and dis 2006 much more creative than PSP, elements being a bit slower i might say, with DIS just as fast as PSP, maybe faster because ive not used PSP for quite some time now.

all i can say is try out DIS 2006 if you still think PSP is better then thats fine, ill certainly not agree with you because for me PSP is not even on the same level as these other editors ive mentioned, but its only my opinion.

mr biggles writes...

I have done a photoshop course (Lynda online) and have tried really hard to just use photoshop, but I always end up gravitating back to Paint shop pro because it is so easy to use.
Photoshop is designed for professionals - mainly photo editing, graphic design and desktop publishing - for users with a good understanding of these industries and the terminology used and tech, whereas PSP is more for the average users.

Several years ago, PSP was far behind, but it has caught up considerably, although Photoshop still has many more useful features.

At the end of the day, both are suitable for web graphics.

Saying that, photoshop is a photo editor - not an image creation tool. Image creation should always be created using a vector-based application.

ferzal writes...

Adobe have never cared about bloating up but it's not getting to the point where it's ridiculous. The HDD space requirements just for installing the editing studio is now 24 Gig!

this is so true that its almost laughable, wouldn't touch it with a pole, crazy insane dumbness but wont say that about any other adobe software, gotta love em.

If price were the only consideration have you heard of Photoshop 5 LE?

It was a slightly cut down version of the then current Photoshop 5 and it was apparently so popular that they took it off the market pretty quickly. Even design studios sometimes bought a few copies of the LE version for those people that didn't need some of the ultra power features. I don't do a lot of graphics so don't notice the difference much. The only annoying thing that is crippled in the LE version is the multiple undo of the full version.

Canon used to bundle it with some of their scanners a few years ago and every now and then one comes up on ebay. Don't seem to be any on ebay OZ at the moment but there are a few on ebay US
search.ebay.com/photosho...peZ0QQsofocusZbs

one last note about Paint Shop Pro...

its been an absolute bother to find tutorials for!

Back in the day searching for psp tutorials gave you a totally different kind of thing, and now... with the sony psp.. its hard to get help for it

Just a little odd spot

All I can say is that there is a reason why Adobe Photoshop is the Industry standard.

Sure the others might be ok, but they don't even rate close to Photoshop in the professional arena.

Un-Nefer writes...

Sure the others might be ok, but they don't even rate close to Photoshop in the professional arena.

yes and no on this point. i wouldnt say others dont even rate close, others do get close, or even as good or a bit better in some of the features they offer, but for all round ability photoshop is chosen as the benchmark to compare to.

in my opinion, and in the opinion of most in this thread, photoshop is the obvious leader, and the industry says the same, thats a fact.
some others will actually cite photoshop as being over rated bloatware and slow in comparison to others like PSP, well thats not really true, and is pretty much irrelevant, speed doesn't necessarily make a product better than another.
if u have the cpu and ram to match the softwares capabilities, doesnt really matter how fast or slow or bloated it is, if your really serious about having the best you will make sure your system can handle it.

and im just starting my new pc rebuild after 2 years.

nothing wrong with PSP for home users or even semi pros who aren't using all the regular features that CS, ELEMENTS or DIS 2006 offer, but its def not worth the $$$ it sells for compared to ELEMENTS 3 or 4 and DIS 2006.

i would def say if you want the best value for your $$$ (at about $120) go get microsoft DIS 2006, its way ahead of PSP, and does some things better than photoshop too. you be the judge, a great buy for $120 or so.

i often find i dont even need the features of CS 9.0, so ill stick with elements 4.0 and DIS 2006 for 90% of my work simply because for about $300 they are awesome value, no more can be said if your serious.

read the review i posted earlier, it says it all.

photoshop CS 9.0 = $950 approx
photoshop elements 4 = $150 approx
microsoft dig image suite 2006 = $125 approx

how much is PSP to buy ???

ferzal writes...

restrictive creativity?? Sorry, that's just crud.

Hardly. Photoshop has far more tools. More tools means more avenue and options to create. There are so many things you can do in Photoshop that PSP simpy can't. I am gona go out on a limb here and say that by your loic and say MS paint allows just as much creative freedom LOL.

Given creativity comes from within, not from the app. But put the same designer in front of both apps and Photoshop will allow more creative freedom.

Note to Photoshop users who have think it to be too un-userfiendly: I used to think the same a very long time ago. But once you get used to it, it simply makes sense and wouldn't have it any ither way. This is why Adobe keep the interface almost identical between thier apps - Illustrator, In-Design and Photoshop. Don't be intimidated by it. You will be fine.

Un-Nefer writes...

Saying that, photoshop is a photo editor - not an image creation tool. Image creation should always be created using a vector-based application.

Agreed. There is nothing worse than a logo designed in Photoshop when it should have bene done in Illustrator or another app capable of exporting a vector based EPS.

have you guys tried coreldraw instead of photoshop?
which is one better or more common in use?

ari1 writes...

have you guys tried coreldraw instead of photoshop?

i was given a copy to try, installed it and more than likely because i had so much been used to photoshop (various versions) elements 3 and now 4, DIS 10 and now the very different DIS 2006, the odd play with PSP, i just couldnt get my teeth around it, maybe out of frustration at having been used to 3 or 4 apps for so long, using a new one, or evenn attempting to use a new one became so daunting i just took it off and handed it back, but am told it is worth the try, i just dont want any more exposure to other stuff, happy with sharing myself with the 3 i have listed already.

photoshop hands down. if your serious about starting to design then i wouldnt even bother with paint shop pro.

i found photoshop had the best ui (easy to navigate) and has soo many better features that it would take days to name them, the workflow is also just perfect.

photoshop is a perfect program in my opinion.

but try them both out see which you like and choose but be aware that photoshop "IS" the industry standard.

edit* and while im on it remember that photoshop comes with image ready which is an excellent tool for webdesigners and animators and is worth the extra $$ imo.

anyway good luck.

Actually, Photoshop's UI has outgrown its abilities. Things like Edit / Transform and Image / Adjustments I find people ask me where they are the most (items contained within).

Photoshop will take you further than PSP. If you're serious about getting in to proper image manipulation, clients may provide PSD files, which PSP can probably open if they're simple but the more complex the file, the less chance of success.

PS is hard to learn compared to PSP, but start out slow - and yeah, everyone goes through a "Wow I just found the Effects menu!!!" phase... just try to contain your excitement there ;)

Spleen writes...

f your serious about starting to design then i wouldnt even bother with paint shop pro.

I don't understand what you mean by "serious" - in the industry (be that what it may), is it easier to use or is there some power features that I (the average user) wouldn't have seen?

Right now, I use PSP every single day and it does everything I need but if I had the cash, I would get Photoshop as well. Problem is, if you can afford that then you better hope you know enough advanced features to get some value for your money.

Is there any examples of work that someone has done in PS that couldn't have been done in PSP so that I can see? I would be interested as imaging applicaions have always intersted me but I have never had the chance to do much with them.

ari1 writes...

which is one better or more common in use?

Corel is better for vector based work, and for print based work. The 2 programs are not really in the same league.

Offline writes...

is it easier to use

quite simply i find photoshop easier to use, and was relatively easy to learn the more advanced tools once getting the hang of the basics. its going to be different for everyone, depends on just how frightening photoshop can appear to you when first presented it onto your screen, looks a bit daunting to start, but hell easy once u get going, and once you do grasp it, you wont even concider PSP again because quite simply PSP cant compete with the likes of photoshop, or even photoshop elements 4.0 and DIS 2006 which ive posted my thoughts on several times because it is quite a nice piece of software.

just wish someone would post saying they have tried DIS 2006 and what they think of it.

if you can afford that then you better hope you know enough advanced features to get some value for your money.

it is worth every penny, but even if you had the money to buy it, why would you want or need to know how to use its more advanced features before you buy it to get value for your money, thats what this is all about is it not, to learn the more advanced features you have to buy it to learn how to use it in the first place.

the easiest way to get a grip of it is to get a trial, full or cut down version and give it a go for free, see how you go but you wont master it during a trial period unless your a genius.

Is there any examples of work that someone has done in PS

what more do you want, take my word for it, and that of many others in here that it is absolutely better than PSP, might or might not be easier to use than PSP, some say yes, some say no but in the end you got to use what suites your needs, PSP does not come close to giving me everything i want and need.

mediaworks writes...

LOL, please don't say his opinion is crud
it was his opinion and there was no need for you to say it was crud, just say you beg to differ with his opinion.

Didn't say his opinion was crud. I said his statement of fact that PSP allows less creativity is crud. And it is crud. That's simple fact. He wasn't stating it as opinion. Read carefully before posting.

this isnt a valid reason to say PSP offers "better" creativity than photoshop or any other photo editor.

Of course it's a valid reason. Creativity, if hindered, is therefore restricted. PSP doesn't hinder in any way. Photoshop can certainly be more hindering than most other applications in it's slowness and non-intuitive design IF you feel that way when using it. My perception of the program lead to my statement which is logically correct. I did say it was my view of the program initially - the rest is simply a logical conclusion. Others may view Photoshop as quicker and more intuitive (though I doubt any new user ever would think that).

c9k writes...

Hardly. Photoshop has far more tools.

Yes yes I hear this all the time. What are these magical tools that nothing else has? Let me reply with this:
Paintshop Pro has far more features. It has more tweaks and zingzangs and other things I'll just make up in lieu of facts.

There are so many things you can do in Photoshop that PSP simpy can't.

I asked you specifically what those things are and you can't even give one simple example let alone the hundreds you imply. No one can. No one ever has. It's just the standard bleat that people hear and repeat without ever actually thinking. I bet you've never even explored Paintshop Pro in any halfway thorough fashion. You're just repeating what you've heard. I actually do know the differences between the products.

If you're going to make statements as fact then be prepared to back them up. All you've said so far is that Photoshop is better because it has more "stuff" and can do more "things" though you clearly don't know what that stuff or things are. So your argument is non existent.

If you "feel" more comfortable with it because you don't know anything else then fine. But please ensure you make it known that your posts are simply opinions and not facts or experienced observations.

Spleen writes...

i found photoshop had the best ui (easy to navigate) and has soo many better features that it would take days to name them,

I've got days. Name them. I can hear the silence already. I can actually list them myself but no one else appears able to. The differences are so minor it's absurd and nothing that enables one product to do something the other can't in a different manner.

I've alluded to the fact that there are some technical differences that make Photoshop preferable for some people but I doubt anyone here is in that category.

be aware that photoshop "IS" the industry standard.

Simply because it was really the first. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it being a better application. In fact it is losing market share and has been doing so slowly for a long time. Most Adobe products are losing market share in this way and I predict a much faster drop off with the latest bloated suite of products they're putting out with overinflated pricetags. There are still some Adobe apps that I use but they're mainly the stolen (bought out) products they offer now.

photoshop comes with image ready

This functionality is built into to every other first-rate editor on the market that I can think of. Which makes Photoshop's standalone bloat that much more ridiculous (though PSP comes with animation shop solely for animated gifs which is a very small accompanying product - the rest of the functionality is within the main app).

I don't care if people prefer Photoshop. I have colleagues and friends who refuse to swap and I understand their decision (it was a big move for me) but I'd like the fables about it's magical superiority to stop. I don't think any experienced campaigner who has seriously investigated other offerings would ever concur.

lol, i was talking to peter :P

i havent had a too big of a play around with psp but enough to know what it feels like and to me it lacks many effects which can be applied through layer blending, filters, customisation of brushes, shape tools etc. the way they all work seem to me and probably 90% of the design communitee to be more advanced and give the effect that you WANT too see.

sure you can do anything in psp which you can do in photoshop but why? stuff like layer blending in psp would take hours and would take a very talented person.

its not about features but how they work in the program.

anyway dont want to continue an argument with you as it will go no where but my message before was for peter so hope he takes it into some consideration.

ferzal writes...

Photoshop can certainly be more hindering than most other applications in it's slowness and non-intuitive design

Haha - I nearly fell off my chair when I read that. Photoshop is not slow. When was the last time you used it? Or are you using a POS computer?

Non-intuitive design. Again I LOL in your general direction. I have no qualms with the Photoshop interface and in fact find it amazingly simple. Neither do any of the other desogners I know - who all incidentally use Photoshop. Just because you don't doesn't mean it's the programs fault. You know now that I think about it, in the 10 years I have been in this industry I have never met any designer who uses PSP - it's always Photoshop. Sure they have tried PSP (as have I) but its a toy in comparison. Its kind of like comparing Bryce to 3DSMax - the latter fo course being the pro's choice of app.

ferzal writes...

others may view Photoshop as quicker and more intuitive (though I doubt any new user ever would think that).

And which application is the industry standard for bitmap editing? More designers (I am talking about actual professionals - not casual users) all over the world prefer to use Photoshop because of one fact - you can be more creative and have access to better work flow tools. Yes it is a serious application and for professionals only, and it costs a lot. But there is a good reason for that.

And new users may be a little daunted by it as you suggest, but that does not mean it is the programs fault. Think about it - 10 versions later and the interface has hardly changed. If Adobe thought people were intimidated by Photoshop's interface, and they thought it could hurt thier market share (especially with competing apps), they would have made changes to it. But gues what - they haven't!

Nuff said.

FERZAL, my only comment to you is that you are not stating your opinions here, your TELLING us that "WE " are all wrong, your asking us to backup our claims about what we are saying, and you haven't yourself given us any constructive reasons yourself why PSP is any better than photoshop or any of the others "in your obvious opinion"

your silence is DEAFENING too my friend, this is always what we come to expect from every post you make in whirlpool, and for me personally it gets a bit monotonous after a while.

stop insulting our intelligence and our opinions by posting this rubbish you giving us and for once m8, accept that this one your not going to win, accept that PSP is not as good as photoshop or even other programs that have been thrown about in here.

DIS 2006 and ELEMENTS 4 are both classic examples m8, ill put both these up against PSP anytime you like, but its not for us to prove one way or another what we are claiming here, theres no need to because we are simply offering our opinions based on what we think of each of these pieces of software.

you have your opinion, we have ours, but in this case m8 your totally wrong and outclassed by people who simply know better about this topic, PSP is in my opinion a very poor piece of software and you cannot ever say that in its price range compared to say elements 4.0 ($150) and DIS 2006 ($120) that it could possibly be a better option, quite simply its not.

back off with your statements m8 telling us we need to substantiate our claims, you post something relevant and let us continue our laughter at your silly minded claims in this thread, not worth a crumpet.

c9k writes...

Haha - I nearly fell off my chair when I read that. Photoshop is not slow. When was the last time you used it? Or are you using a POS computer?

ha ha ha, i like this and yeah i did fall off mine.

Non-intuitive design. Again I LOL in your general direction. I have no qualms with the Photoshop interface

believe it or not i personally think DIS 2006 has the best interface and is easier to use than all of them, but i have to be careful here because we are making comparisons between a 2 totally different classes of software (yes PSP and photoshop are worlds apart both in cost and ability) so i would make my comparisons of PSP more between say ELEMENTS 3 or 4 and DIS 2006, more in the same price range and levels of expertise, but still PSP is not up there even with these 2 pieces of software either, obviously ferzal hasn't used DIS 2006 for starters and no doubt thinks PSP is better than elements as well, based on whats been said by him thus far

And new users may be a little daunted by it as you suggest, but that does not mean it is the programs fault.

true, i found it a bit daunting at first, but once you get going, easy peazy

they would have made changes to it. But guess what - they haven't!


NUFF SAID here too

ferzal writes...

I've got days. Name them. I can hear the silence already. I can actually list them myself but no one else appears able to

same old same old ferzal, you use this line in lots of threads I've seen you post in, "the silence is deafening" also applies to you my friend, i don't see anything from you to substantiate your claims either so be our guest m8 and list your reasons why PSP is better than photoshop, seems strange to me that your the only person i know anywhere on this planet that will agree with anything you have said here. you certainly are totally outnumbered here, so why is it that if PSP was as good as you say it is, why do so many use PHOTOSHOP, simple my friend because it is the best app of its kind, FACT

Which makes Photoshop's standalone bloat that much more

LOL another ridiculous claim, back it up m8, please, show some creativity here, you seem to be very creative at putting everyone else down for their comments and opinions.

I don't care if people prefer Photoshop. I have colleagues and friends who refuse to swap and I understand their decision

LOL, i cannot believe you really do have friends and colleagues who would have the same opinion that you have and wouldn't change PSP for photoshop, quite frankly if they are professionals they would clearly make the decision to at least use something else other than PSP, i simply find your comments here are just totally ridiculous and typical of you very opinionated mind. you obviously live in a totally different world to me m8 because i dont know anyone who would ever go back to PSP once using photoshop, not one person.

ferzal writes...

Didn't say his opinion was crud. I said his statement of fact that PSP allows less creativity is crud

c9k : Paint Shop pro, although not a bad app, just doesn't't allow the creativity Photoshop allows. (is this not an opinion based on what he "believes" to be fact, no matter what it is, it is an opinion by him and you said it was crud, its plain and simple)

you followed up with this comment.

ferzal : There are some technical reasons why some people wouldn't use PSP and many business reasons but restrictive creativity?? Sorry, that's just crud. (is this not calling his opinion "crud" i believe it is) and i think your insulting his and everyone elses intelligence by some of your crazy highly opinionated comments.

And it is crud. That's simple fact.

here you go again with that crud crap, only this time its a fact, your very opinionated.

Others may view Photoshop as quicker and more intuitive

well we do believe it to be quicker and more intuitive, all of us thus far in this thread.

(though I doubt any new user ever would think that).

strange comment here coming from someone so highly opinionated as you are, everyone who uses photoshop has to be a NEW USER at some point in time do they not, i was a NEW USER when i first started using photoshop as was everyone else, so a fact of consideration has to be that it cant have been that bad for all those who use it because we are all still using it now simply because once you get over any fear or intimidation you might have using it for the first time, you soon realise its true potential and ability, once started it simply gets better.

i can honestly tell you that everyone i know that used PSP has had a slight fear of photoshop when first confronted with it, but some do actually believe that it must be better if it is slightly harder to learn and use in the beginning, given time and some messing about, most do find it very enjoyable once used and mastered.

having said all that, i do know people who still use PSP (especially the old ver 7.0) because it is easier to use and for those (amateurs) who don't want or need to upgrade to something much better, its a good piece of software that allows them to do what they need it to do, but does not come close to PHOTOSHOP and thats as clear as the day is long.

mediaworks writes...

but doesn't not come close to PHOTOSHOP and that as clear as the day is long.

Agreed. Never has, never will. That is why I switched to Photoshop in the first place years ago. There was a time where I would juggle between both, but more and more I found Photoshop had functionality that PSP did not. And eventually, PSP just didn't cut it for me at all. Photoshop was a steeper learning curve, but it pays off. Droplets anyone? Love the droplets....

c9k writes...

Agreed. Never has, never will.

never has ??? was close in earlier versions of both

never will ??? true if jasc don't pick up the game, but not likely in the foreseeable future thats for sure.

There was a time where I would juggle between both,

yes same here, but not a lot, i used SPS up till version 7, after that PHOTOSHOP 99% of the time, now i use ELEMENTS 4.0 and DIS 2006 90% of the time.

Photoshop was a steeper learning curve, but it pays off

u bet it does, a handful at the first look but after messing with it a few times, gets easier.

Spleen writes...

i havent had a too big of a play around with psp but enough to know what it feels like and to me it lacks many effects which can be applied through layer blending, filters, customisation of brushes, shape tools etc.
stuff like layer blending in psp would take hours and would take a very talented person

It's now very clear you have no knowledge of the subject. I'm not very talented and I can do these things in PSP much faster that Photoshop because I find it quicker to perform just about any standard task (and, of course, I'm more comfortable with it now since I've haven't used Photoshop consistently for a couple of years or more now).

edit: spelling

And.. please don't be offended but if you're going to say that one product is better than another please do try to actually have a clue about BOTH products otherwise simply state that you like Photoshop and why and leave the other product (which you know nothing about) out of the equation.

mediaworks writes...

i don't see anything from you to substantiate your claims either

The burden of evidence actually lies on those posters who claim Photoshop can do a billion things Paintshop Pro can't. You might do well to learn a little basic logic.

I've simply stated that's not true and challenge anyone to prove it since, if it was true and they knew it, it would be so easy to do so. For me to prove the opposite I would have to list all features of both products side by side. That's not exactly convenient for this thread is it?

This is not just a matter of preference. You talk about opinion as though opinions can't be wrong. If you are of the opinion that black is white then you're most likely going to be challenged and found out. Similarly if someone states that Photoshop has all these features that PSP doesn't then, unless they can back up their bold statements, their opinions won't really count for much.

i cannot believe you really do have friends and colleagues who would have the same opinion that you have and wouldn't change PSP for photoshop,

I do but I was actually speaking of people who refuse to change FROM photoshop. Your comprehension skills are suffering due to your vehemence to disagree.

you obviously live in a totally different world to me m8 because i dont know anyone who would ever go back to PSP once using photoshop, not one person.

I know many, many people who have swapped to PSP from Photoshop. There's a whole damn community of people who have done so.

If you find my opinions ridiculous fine but you should actually have reasons for doing so other than just disliking me on a hunch. You haven't given any technical reasons why using PSP is a ridiculous choice. I doubt your knowledge on this subject is very sound much like the other poster who has admitted knowing nothing about PSP. I have used both programs extensively over many years so, like it or not, my opinions are formed by actual experience rather than from something I heard someone say.

You really don't seem to grasp some basic debating concepts so I'll just point this out again: I'm not the one stating that PSP has features that Photoshop doesn't or can do things Photoshop can't or other things that are plainly FALSE. People who base their opinions on false premises can't expect their opinions to hold much weight. If you're all such experts then why do none of you actually know what you're talking about? If you want me to provide some technical proof about some claim I've made then ask a question and I'll answer it. I've asked questions and NO ONE has answered them. No one. Just consider that for a moment while you're laughing your little head off.

By the way Jasc is no longer the owner of PSP. Welcome to 2006.

Just to quickly address this:

mediaworks writes...

seems strange to me that your the only person i know anywhere on this planet that will agree with anything you have said here.

You might want to read this thread again. And others like it.

why is it that if PSP was as good as you say it is, why do so many use PHOTOSHOP, simple my friend because it is the best app of its kind, FACT

You're losing it now. I've addressed this question. Go back and try to breathe a little and relax. Don't take this personally. We're simply discussing image editing applications.

list your reasons why PSP is better than photoshop

I've already stated why it's better in my view. I like the interface, the pricetag and the lack of bloat. It can do everything that Photoshop can for a lesser price and in a way that I prefer. That doesn't mean that PSP is better than Photoshop as a FACT but my opinion is based on facts not false assumptions like most others here and you would do well to remember that THAT is what I'm pointing out.

Now have a bex and a bit of lie down and come back and address the argument technically if you can rather than simply having a go at me for having an opinion you don't like.

FERZAL, you simply cant help yourself, your talents lie in the gutter my friend, stop patronising me and others here and attempting to tread on people like you are with all your stupid rants and raves, you too need to be able to substantiate your claims too if you want us to do it for ours, we don't need to give you or anyone else anything documented or any reasoning why we prefer photoshop over PSP, we are making opinions based on our own use and experiences of photoshop and PSP, but your comments go beyond that, they are actually selfless, opinionated and in some cased border on rudeness and arrogance, almost insulting.

you do this in every thread you enter and make comments in, your use of words in the way you put them is quite simply a way to empower yourself and intimidate others.

leave it alone m8 and you can ramble on all you like, I'm not going to bother with your stupidity any more.

spell check and grammer btw, might pay to use it sometimes.

ferzal writes...

It can do everything that Photoshop can

Completely false. But I know what you are saying. You mean for your purposes, PSP can do everything Photoshop can do :-) I get it. Just like if the only thing you need an image editor for is to; let says say crop an image, then MS Paint can do everything Photoshop can.

im outa here because ferzal does this in every thread he goes to, total uncalled for intimidation and blatant arrogance and rudeness, i dont care if i get my posts cut from this thread, he simply does this to incite argument and totally loses the plot and takes the thread totally off coarse.

get a life ferzal, your a total disruptive arrogant individual.

mediaworks writes...

your talents lie in the gutter my friend,

More personal attacks...

And not one single attempt to address the argument. I think it's very obvious that we can conclude that you can't think of one single reason why PSP is limited compared to Photoshop. If you could then you'd state it. Not even one? Come on. I can list a few and I prefer PSP myself.

almost insulting.

Yes and "your talents lie in the gutter" and "Im not going to bother with your stupidity any more" is so very pleasant. If you're insulted it's only because your arguments are baseless and you cannot defend them. I have not once personally attacked you. In fact I was sure if you relaxed a little you could present a decent argument and I was looking forward to it. Alas...

The facts are these: I prefer PSP. Others prefer Photoshop. No worries.
Other claim false things about the products. Not OK.
I challenge them to prove the false claims and then you challenge me to prove the false claims are false.. bad form for many reasons.

Look I'm not out to bag anyone's preference. I'm simply asking people to stop lying about their knowledge of products by claiming that Photoshop has more this or more that etc. when they really don't have a clue.

spell check and grammer

Classic. Absolute classic.

c9k writes...

Completely false

I can only ask you to state, yet again, why this is so.

You've already admitted you don't know anything about PSP so why are you bagging it? You talked about "blending" a very basic, IMO, feature of any image editing application and PSP handles this in almost exactly the same way as Photoshop does. You could even say it copied the concepts directly from Photoshop.

You might hate the look, smell and feel of PSP but believe me it can do all the things Photoshop can do.

ferzal writes...

'm simply asking people to stop lying about their knowledge of products by claiming that Photoshop has more this or more that etc. when they really don't have a clue.

last post.

so we are all liars, this is absolute rubbish and you know it, I'm not feeding your egotistical brain any more, sorry about the rudeness m8 but its very deserving, your intolerable and arrogant.

Ok, enough bitching guys please, it looks like Ferzal is just trying to prove an ego thing.

ferzal writes...

You might hate the look, smell and feel of PSP but believe me it can do all the things Photoshop can do.

you know it cant.

Super Roach writes...

looks like Ferzal is just trying to prove an ego thing.

yes his ego has been dented, this time at least, and he needs to stop posting stuff like this in every thread he goes to, just to attempt to put people down with his silly jibberish nonsense

It looks to me like both Ferzal and some others don't have enough knowledge of both products to backup there posts.

This isn't a bad thing, it just means that you don't like/use the other program.

Either way, if either of you can't back your comments up, then both of you should stop posting. We have read all you have to say and each new post from you guys adds totally nothing to the thread.

Put up or shut up guys.

Prove an ego thing? I guess I should expect that kind of attitude when I happen to disagree with the majority.

One last time for ANYONE - absolutely anyone. Provide any evidence whatsoever to support your claims that PSP can not do everything that PhotoShop can do. It's a simple request and I fail to see what it has to do with my bloody ego.

You can all conclude that Photoshop is superior I don't care but I do care that people are filling this thread with incorrect statements that when asked to back them up they personally attack me and accuse me of going on some ego trip.

Very basic: Photoshop can do things that PSP can't: Some examples.

That's all I require. That's ALL I've asked for. Nothing else.

Perhaps I could start the ball rolling. PSP, by default, works in sRGB and you cannot directly create CMYK images in PSP. You can achieve the same end result as Photoshop and separate and convert to CMYK (and work with separated channels) but the process would not be as intuitive and sensible for traditional Photoshop users.

So there's one technical difference that may matter although, in the end, the outcomes aren't effected. Photoshop does handle this better.

Anyone else actually know anything about both products? Or do you just want to abuse me for having a differing opinion based on real experience?

Un-Nefer writes...

Put up or shut up guys.

Do you expect me to list every single feature of Photoshop and PSP and every single thing you can do with both products and thereby prove that you are not limited technically by choosing either one? That's an unreasonable request.

I'm prepared, however, to answer any reasonable request for proof about any particular claim or acknowledge the differences if we can find them. I only know of a few myself of any importance.

ferzal writes...

Do you expect me to list every single feature of Photoshop and PSP and every single thing you can do with both products and thereby prove that you are not limited technically by choosing either one? That's an unreasonable request.
Not at all. But as you are making the point of saying that PSP is a much better product then PS, perhaps you could list a few reasons why - and not those dogey reasons, but actual solid reasons.

I only know of a few myself of any importance.
I ditched PSP about 5 years ago, but just for this thread I'll go download the latest version and post any differences I find.

I'll be back in about 15 minutes :P

Un-Nefer writes...

I'll be back in about 15 minutes :P

LOL

Un-Nefer writes...

Not at all. But as you are making the point of saying that PSP is a much better product then PS, perhaps you could list a few reasons why

I have. It's not a better product because of what it can or can't do. They're both much of a muchness there. It's better in my opinion because I prefer the way it works, its pricetag, its GUI and it's lack of bloat (though it has bloated up considerably as well in past versions) and you can reach exactly the same end result as you can in Photoshop with, IMO, more intuitive tools which more resemble standard windows programs rather than the MAC style UI that Photoshop has mutated from. I also like PSP's batch handling. It's brilliant.

Scripting support for PSP makes almost anything possible if you take the time meaning it's so very easily customisable for any task for any user that you can save hours (days even over time) in a process that appears far simpler to me than Photoshop's. It's built in export feature (like that of the separate imageready program) is far more convenient. There are dozens of little reasons why I prefer it. And that's the point - in the end they're little reasons of preference so technical facts of superiority.

We could get into specifics but, as you can probably tell, in so many ways these programs are so very similar. The differences are often minor so it comes down to preference and I don't deny that. I just deny that Photoshop is a technically superior product by fact rather than preference.

ferzal writes...

Prove an ego thing? I guess I should expect that kind of attitude when I happen to disagree with the majority.

ferzal it happens in every post you make in every thread, you always dissagree with everyone so what else do you expect from us, take a look at every thread you ever posted in, same old ranting, only this time you ARE WRONG and out classed by a better preformer.

don't care but I do care that people are filling this thread with incorrect statements

not incorrect, to you maybe, to the rest of us definately not.

by default, works in sRGB

now your getting silly here, your desperation is starting to show.

Very basic: Photoshop can do things that PSP can't: Some examples.

he needs us to feed his egotistical mind, im not going to bother, no point and no need to.

Photoshop does handle this better.

what, can this be true, am i hearing you right ???

based on real experience?

as i said, ive used both and made my choice, and im not a LIAR for what ive claimed.

ferzal writes...

by fact rather than preference.

does it matter tho, even if photoshop isnt anymore technical than psp or the other way around, i use photoshop (mostly elements) because its my tool of preference, and thats a fact. it does what i want it to do in a better way than psp can do it (for me at least)

CHEERS EVERYONE im out of here, totally lost the plot now.

ferzal writes...

It's better in my opinion because I prefer the way it works, its pricetag, its GUI and it's lack of bloat (though it has bloated up considerably as well in past versions) and you can reach exactly the same end result as you can in Photoshop with, IMO, more intuitive tools which more resemble standard windows programs rather than the MAC style UI that Photoshop has mutated from.
Fair enough. BUT, IMHO it is not if they can do the same thing, but rather the usability and efficiency of the product - and this is why PS is better for me and most others.

From what I have read in reviews (and I will test when I download PSP) is that PSP is very slow and it takes many steps to achieve the same result. It also has issues with even the most basic features - such as saving in PNG format, redeye removal, photo-stitching, and stability - I read it crashes often when working with large images. etc (again I will test).

The reason Photoshop is the standard is not that it is the "oldest" program, but rather because it is efficient in reaching the final result. It has remarkable stability and it's supported features (and access to) are easier to work with (IMO).

The cost is irrelevant, as time wasted working in PSP to acheiev the same result, or time lost due to a crash can cost much more.

I work with Photoshop on a daily basis, with 300dpi CMYK tiff images of upto A3 in size. Most of these images need specific things done to them, so processing time to do these things as well as stability is very important.

As I said, I will test PSP out and get back. I owuld have already, but the corel website is down - very professional.

Un-Nefer writes...

but rather the usability and efficiency of the product - and this is why PS is better for me and most others.

Entirely valid opinion and this is not what I was disagreeing with. I used to use PS myself. I understand the attraction.

From what I have read in reviews (and I will test when I download PSP) is that PSP is very slow and it takes many steps to achieve the same result.

This can be true from the view of a Photoshop user (who usually write the reviews) but a PSP user will usually find the opposite which makes sense really.

It also has issues with even the most basic features - such as saving in PNG format, redeye removal, photo-stitching, and stability - I read it crashes often when working with large images. etc (again I will test).

I've never noticed any issues at all with any of these things myself. Redeye removal is customisable down to the pixel, including feathering, blurring etc. I don't know what else there is to it and you can customise the process further. You can of course do this manually also as we did in the early days (or via plugins). I'm not a huge fan of the auto-features of either program in all situations. They're not designed to be cure-alls but they are handy for the majority of work.

The reason Photoshop is the standard is not that it is the "oldest" program, but rather because it is efficient in reaching the final result. It has remarkable stability and it's supported features (and access to) are easier to work with (IMO).

It's impossible to prove or disprove that one. There was ONLY Photoshop previously. It had a complete monopoly and whether or not is the best application for the job now is irrelevant. Changing products for many is simply not an easy option. It's all too easy to stick with Photoshop so unless it becomes totally unusable it will be the industry standard for a while to come regardless of whether there are better applications around or not. Being the industry standard, however, is not proof of superiority.

The cost is irrelevant

For many yes. For new professionals, freelancers and so on it's not. For me it's a big issue because I actually work better with PSP than Photoshop (and I do work with many-layered images using "blending", transparency, featherring, alpha masks, colour correction and manipulation, "texturising" and scripting to produce creative images).

processing time to do these things as well as stability is very important.

I actually compared Photoshop and PSP side by side in processing things like basic features and even third party plugins and, for me at least, PSP was consistantly faster in it's handling. Why that is I don't claim to know - it just is.

the corel website is down

I can't say I was happy when Corel bought it out. I may well be looking elsewhere soon who knows. As it stands though PSPX is a fantastic product on par with Photoshop.

edit: on par in technical terms. Ahead in my personal preference. Just to clarify before some zealot jumped on it. :P

mediaworks writes...

not incorrect

OK so if the statements that Photoshop has far more tools and features than PSP are correct... name some. Is that really so difficult? If you know this to be fact you must know the answers.

Edit: funky logic

ferzal writes...

You've already admitted you don't know anything about PSP

Completely false

ferzal writes...

it can do all the things Photoshop can do

Completely false again.

Photoshop can do things that PSP can't: Some examples.

Droplets. The most time saving feature in Photoshop. Can't live without them. Saves oodles of time.

Can we end this please?

ok some things:

RAW support - you can't do 16 bit channels per colour - this ALONE kills psp. I don't think theres anymore discussion on that. IF there was, then camera manufcaturers and adobe are the ones doing the main programming and support for it.

Rock solid plugin support - some plugins don't (still) work with paint shop pro. Its not the original maker of the format. End of story.

Vast tutorial and presets market/freeware on the net: PSP DOES have some... but nothing on photoshop.

Ok thats enough